Yesterday, my son got up early to go to Ikea. His employer (Best Buy) had asked him to buy some new furniture for their lunch room, given him a budget, and left him to figure it out.

I couldn't help remembering the struggles we had over the years to get him up in time for school. What a difference!

Of course he's been out of school for two years, so he's grown up from the passage of time, but I don't think that's the main difference. Every day, he felt crushed by the meaningless demands the school made for him to conform, he just hated it, and tried to postpone the evil moment he had to endure it again. Best Buy makes demands on him too, but he can see that these demands are necessary to the function of the store. He does not perceive them as insults.

Yesterday, he felt proud that Best Buy trusted him to make good decisions, so the moment he woke up, he wanted to get going to show that this trust was well-founded.

I wanted to share this so that parents whose children are still in school can feel reassured that their kids may do much better in the real world.

It also reminded me that most of the pain the schools inflicted on my son served no purpose I can see, other than minor bureaucratic convenience.

I am glad to hear that your son is able to " make it " ( whatever that really means ) in the world beyond the classroom.
My son is only 8, and I worry about his young adult/adulthood as well. He is ready to leave home, go live on Sesame Street, and hang out with Elmo. He has assured me that I will not be missed.
Now..if that was a possibility..I would get him a plane ticket today. ( Jake is aware that Elmo is pretend, that Kevin Cash pretends to be Elmo..but he wants nothing to do with Kevin Cash..he just wants to hang with Elmo).

Good for you proud PaPa!!
Megan

Yeh, it's that old thing of you have to show an aspie the benefit or purpose or they have no motivation. It is cool he likes what he does and it really is a show of trust that they are giving him a budget and allowing him to make decisions for the company. Does he live with you and your wife?

That is a little refreshing to know our kids can make it "in the real world." This is my husbands biggest fear. I can say we have made progress, and we have started the reward system with marbles in a jar. .. you get a marble when you are noticed doing or do something good. Reward the good behavior, down play the bad. So far it has been going good since Friday. My husband said he is amazed on how well both kids are doing with this,(He was skeptical at first). We will always wory about our children even when they are grown and gone and make lives of their own. But for now I'm going to cherish every moment I have with them and help both succeed in this world. :):)

Yes, Linda, he still lives at home. He grumbles quite a bit about this, and talks about moving in with friends, but I don't expect it to happen any time soon. He's fairly dependent on having someone organize the practical details of life.

Max has told us he has no intention of leaving home. He used to want to go away to college but now he thinks he would rather live at home. In fact he expects us to move out and retire to our mountain cabin and let him have the house - riiiiiight!!!!!!!!

Sounds like my son. He has at various times expressed the view that his parents OUGHT to subsidize him in various ways, but that he has no obligations to us. He'll often retreat from thisposition somewhat when I point out that his attitude is similar to the school saying that he OUGHT to be able to do various things he finds difficult, but that the school has no obligation to accomodate him in any way.

Yes, I had to remind him that he has 2 brothers and a sister and they all get equal shares. He couldn't believe this as they have their own houses and have never lived in our house. I had to point out that they did not always have their houses, they had to work and save to get them and so will he - so he'd better get busy on that biology homework!

Yes. Having everything revolve around one can be an all too easy illusion to run away with. I know I used to do it. It kind of brings to mind (or my mind, anyway) the vision of a spider striving to stay in the middle of its web.

...Or at least it would do if spiders didn't have to move from the centre every time a fly gets caught in the edges, or have to waste vital energy mending broken threads here and there whenever there's a breeze. It's positively sickening, actually, and I may have to switch invertebrates...

(And there's more in that than you might think as well. I am a little parasitic in nature. An ideal trick for when you're feeling socially awkward in a party environment is just to look pathetically at a wall and someone will automatically stroll over and buy you a drink. Some minibeasts have the right idea.)

Sorry about that, people. It's just ridiculously late at night where I am and I suddenly felt the need to start some form of literary doodling.

But yes, it's good to know that your son has some self-esteem; good that he has aspirations as well. What level of school is he in, or is it school as in college?

My son hated high school so much he has essentially refused to go to college - but I think he would have gone if he'd been accepted where he wanted to go.

I didn't really fight this, since there seemed little point in paying vast sums for him to attend but refuse to work. After two years of Best Buy, I'm not at all sure I did the right thing.

I don't see you had a choice. You could have fought and argued but if he didn't want to do the work you could not make him. Has his 2 years work shown him that school might be easier or his ultimate job easier if he had a degree?

I think he's found a comfort zone, and is reluctant to move out of it.

The school made him feel a failure, and he now feels successful. I think he's deeply afraid that if he went to college, he'd be back failing.

Well, here's the deal for me - I just want Max to be happy, so do you think he is happy? Feeling successful is GOOD. If he needs more out of life later maybe the confidence he is getting in himself here will allow him to reach higher if that is what he decides he wants?

Linda

I sure hope so. I guess it took a long time for me to recover, so I shouldn't be so impatient with him.

I think it's great that he works at Best Buy. It was your dream, John, that he go to college? I think if he's happy, that's great. Do you think he'd consider some business classes or something online that could help him move up at his job?

John, I was going to tell you that I've read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." It's been a long time, since I read it, but I understand the theme of it even though I thought that motorcycle maintenance is boring, lol. Good book. I hate technology! Zen and computer maintenance. Lost cause! I just recently broke my printer. Damnit!

I wouldn't exactly describe him as happy - for one thing he has never had a girlfriend, which I'm sure is lack of self-confidence, not lack of interest. He's just much less unhappy at Best Buy than he was at school. He's afraid to take any courses for fear that doing so would put him back into the misery of school.

What about online classes? If you can find an accredited school that might be just the ticket.....all the credits, none of the teacher! Or even one where you do 90% of class work offsite and only go to class 1 X a week. My girlfriend finished her last 2 years that way.

My friend is working on her Masters totally online..and LOVES it. It is easier because she works fulltime and has 4 kids..so she can do her coursework at 3 am if she needs to.
The students do critique each other, so there is that interaction. Her avorite thing is the instructer posted the syllabus on day..for tht whole semester, and has stuck to it. So..people can work ahead if they want.

Megan

This is a great story. I'm sure your pride in him is well supported. I have had many people in the past express some level of sympathy for my son and I a~l~w~a~y~s tell them about my nephew who is severely autistic and point out the things I am proud of Forest for. I applaud you for shining like a proud parent, because you should be.

God Bless,
(Forest's Dad)

I can understand being stuck in that comfort zone. It provides safety in a chaotic world where any number of things could go wrong at any given time. At least in the "comfort zone" you have developed some self-confidence and do not want to let it go because it's a good feeling. No matter how much you crave the ability to control your world, there's always a chance that something from outside can come and upset that control. It's scary.

That's why I moved up to Maryland and attended graduate school. It was either all or nothing. I had to push myself or otherwise I knew I would still be living at home and I desperately wanted independence. At that point, I was ready to face the scary and unknown because well - if you're going to upset the balance, you might as well go all the way at once. The success is in surviving. True, failure is an option, but when you've already cleared that barrier, you will do anything not to go back. If that makes sense...?

- Serenity

My son doesn't have very high expectations at this time. He has already stated that he has no interest in going to college and that doesn't bother me. If he can work at something he enjoys, I'll be so happy. I tried to go to college, but wasn't as fortunate as people that know what they want to do before they graduate from high school. I should have made a better choice and stuck to it. I gave up too easily, but I did watch my parents strive for a successful business. It's not an easy world now. I hate to be negative, but it's not as easy to find employment with six billion people on this earth.

I'm happy for your son.

But he mightn't want a girlfriend. Some aspies are quite happy on their own. As long as he's reasonably content working at Best Buy, it's best to leave him be. College isn't for everybody, and he might want to do some community courses at some stage eg. bookkeeping.

I've been told I should go back to college but honestly, unless it was something I really wanted to do, it wouldn't be much point. There are plenty of ways of learning besides in a formal classroom and it's less costly.

"But he mightn't want a girlfriend. Some aspies are quite happy on their own. As long as he's reasonably content working at Best Buy, it's best to leave him be."

Wise words.

Because Best Buy doesn't pay him much, he's still living at home, which he resents. When we told him we were going down to Florida to look at buying a retirement home, he got very upset and accused us of plotting to throw him out.

I just asked my wife whether she thought he wanted a girlfriend - she said "sure, he's just scared shitless" - I agree.

Ah, are you really sure about going to Florida? I say this because I read in a forensics book about the high suicide rate in older people who move there in retirement.

It's all fine at first but if one partner dies before the other, the one left over often gets very lonely and depressed and it might just seem too hard to go back "home" to their hometown.
It's certainly a decision to be taken with a great deal of care and intensive research.

Aspies get very attached to their natal home and that's no doubt why your son is reacting so badly to even the possibility of your selling up and moving a long way away.

Is there any other relative or friend he could live with if you decide to go through with moving to Florida?

We will not be retiring there for some time, but real estate prices are quite tempting just now.

The Villages, where we are visiting, is famous in medical circles for it's high rates of STDs , which may or may not relate to the degree of loneliness. If we had strong roots in the community we live in we would probably stay here, but we have noticed that the retirees here seem somewhat lonely because all their neighbors are working, and have little time to socialize.

I never thought about the natal home bit, perhaps because my parents moved around a lot. We've been here since he was one, so I think you're right. Thanks so much.

I have to laugh a little bit. My parents decided to move to their ideal retirement area, and I was threatened with losing my home when they moved away. Even though it was years in advance, I moved BEFORE them, to the town they were going to retire in. Then, with me established, I worked with them and the planners and builders, to create their retirement home. I lived in that home almost 5 years before they finally retired and they moved in with me (in their house). Quite funny, now that I think about it.

That is hilarious Bart. Max does not like the idea of us ever selling our home and think we should just let him have it. Never mind about the other 3 kids or what money we would use to buy our retirement home. He gets very attached. When we sold our townhouse and moved here he was soooo upset. Even though this was a far better home, neighborhood, yard etc. He said he would miss his room and it was mean to leave a room that was such a good room. He was 9. Now he feels the same way about this house.........

I never remember feeling that way about my parents' houses. That may have been because we moved four times, or because I never felt loved there. I always felt loved by my grandparents, and was upset when they moved when I was 16........

I don't want to sound as if I'm blaming my parents. I think it was hard for me to notice their love, mixed as it was with their perfectly reasonable concerns for my problems. All I heard was their disappointment in me. It's a bitter pill that whatever I say, that's all my son hears now.

John,

The last sentence makes me so sad. My father was an alcoholic. I loved him dearly but I know I carry scars from his alcoholism. I drink very little but I know that we parent as we were parented because it is really all we know about parenting. I went to classes for Adult Children of Alcoholics when I was in my early twenties and my first 2 sons were very small. I wanted to break the chain and not carry that kind of parenting on to the next generation. It must have worked out ok because honestly my sons are two of the best fathers I have ever seen. Sometimes it is just a matter of breaking the chain. I know that your son is older but I bet you can learn from your parents mistakes even now...

You are a good man and you love your son so I trust at some point you two will work through this.

Linda

Everyone carries scars from events that all reasonable people would agree should never happen to anyone. All we can do is our best.

My father did his best, given who he was. Because I was me, it left scars that took until I was forty to heal enough for us to become friends. I did my best given who I am, and because my son is himself, he has scars from that. No doubt he'll recover in due course.

I'm just glad my parents lived long enough for me to get to know them as friends. I hope I live long enough for my son - I don't want him to feel guilty after I'm dead.

I had a friend whose parents were violent alcholics. Her father had died without recovering, but her mother had become a fun old lady, who could look back on her life with sadness but without destructive levels of guilt. Did your father ever find peace? Did you findpeace with him? Or are these questions too painful to answer?

John - Have you asked him where he plans to be in 5 years and how he plans to get there?

It might be a good conversation starter.

Best Buy is sort of a hard-sell kind of place. I have been lied to and told disingenuous things there when trying to pick up a special. They have since publically announced that they would like to lose the bottom 20% (in terms of profit) of their customers.

I don't go in there unless I absolutely must and I carry a well-sharpened rhetorical sword with me when I do.

Put him in the car business. If he is smart and talented, he will be in management and earning six figures at five years.

Better yet, put him in the hellish car business for a year and then offer to help him with his college applications again.

Best Buy offers no job security, marginal pay, etc. At least in the car business you can find a new job in 10 minutes if you are breathing and have half a brain.

I agree that he has found a comfort zone. Some might call it a rut.

As a parent, maybe you could encourage him out of his rut without ordering him around.

You would be doing him a favour.

Selling cars espouses a lot of your values. There is man to man competition, rewarded by paychecks, spiffs and bonuses, and lots of pep-talks and the freedom to use any idea that will work, so long as it fits in the framework of the system used by the particular dealership.

My bet is that despite the large sums of money, he will be pining for school. He will be competing not just against young "greenpeas" but seasoned veterans in the car business. It might give him better perspective than the predominantly young salesforce at Best Buy.

Best of luck John - and you know I mean that.

I know you do - we drive each other nuts sometimes, but I have great respect for you.

You'd be amazed at how your advice tracks what I have been suggesting to him (somewhat based on things you have said in the past).

Thanks so much for your support.

Oh John, there was never a breach between us. No matter what his faults my Dad always loved me well. I never doubted his love for me for a second. And I loved him equally. He also was the funniest man I ever met - so any guys I dated had to be pretty damn funny or they did not stand a chance! It used to make me mad when I was really young that he would not just stop drinking. As I got older I realized it really was a disease and that he could not help it. He had his own demons. When I was 8 months pregnant with Max I flew 800 miles against Dr.s orders to be at his side and stay with him through the nights as he hated hospitals and I did not want him to die alone. I wrote a song for him called "Favorite Daughter" one of the lines in it is "You used to introduce me to your friends as your favorite daughter. And yes I know you introduced my sisters in the very same way. Your magic is we each believed we were the one you meant it about, and we still believe it to this very day" We have had discussions about this for years and we are all convinced we were his favorites. What a great legacy to leave your children....so there was no need to make peace, we were never at war. I could have asked for a better role model maybe or provider but I could never have asked for a father who loved me more and really isn't that one of the best gifts we can give our children?

Linda

That's exactly what I meant by making peace. After that you could enjoy each other's company without fear of accidentally reigniting old wounds, if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor. Apparently you "made it" at a much younger age than I did, so perhaps you're less concious of how much of a difference it made.

That's all right The people in that village must be getting up to some naughty things if there are so many STDs.

I was very sad when mum had to sell the house my siblings and I grew up in and didn't like what the new owners did to the place. Mum thought about renting the house after she remarried (some years after dad died) but it is a lot of bother having a rental property and worrying that the renters could be trashing the place.

None of us were living in the town so couldn't buy the house off her. It was a really nice place and very big (there were 7 of us plus mum and dad)

You gotta admit, if you're going to get Aids, better at 80 than at 15!

Just like smoking, John. If you have to experiment, do it at 80.

I'm not sure car sales would be a good business for an aspie to go into. Most aspies are honest to a fault and wouldn't generally be able to gloss over faults in a car. They might do better with new cars.

Is Best Buy like a warehouse surplus shop or something? It's important to remember that aspies often don't care a real lot about money or material possessions so a 6 figure salary might not be such a big incentive to an aspie as it would be to other people.

This young man obviously wants what money can't buy - a secure home base and a job he feels comfortable with even if it is low paid.

Best Buy is a chain of electronics and consumer durables stores.

I'm not primarily concerned that he's not earning enough money, though I have pointed out that most American males end up supporting wives, ex-wives, children, etc., and that his current paycheck won't cover such things.

My main concern is that he is obviously not enjoying life. Are my (and my wife's) expressions of concern and support making him more depressed, or are they helping him find a way forward? Clearly, children can continue to worry their parents even after they are technically adults!

I think he's sensible not getting mixed up with women if it's going to get so expensive; or that he meets one who has an independent income. He just might not want to get married or even have a girlfriend, and these days, quite a few people never marry.

The rat race and the white picket fence and 2.2 kids is not for all of us and it would be a boring world indeed if everybody were the very same.

Is there a hobby he could take up where he might meet some like-minded people, or even an adult aspie support group in the area?

Is he actually saying he is unhappy/feeling in a rut etc.? Some of us are told quite constantly to "cheer up" because we rarely smile but just because we don't smile doesn't mean we are depressed. I can't speak for your son as I don't know him but this is a point to consider.

Anything that could be construed by your son as pressure to "get a better job", "get a girlfriend" etc. is likely to be counterproductive, making your son dig his heels in further and be totally averse to considering any change to his current behaviours.

It often takes us years later than most to work out what we want out of life and then to decide how to get there. I'm in my 40's and still have far to go.

Not only does he never smile, he stays in bed till noon on his days off and shows other signs of depression. I try not to pressure him, but I can't persuade my wife to hold her tongue. As I type, she's telling him he should look for anothr job.

John, I don't know how you can do it, but somehow if you could only persuade your wife not to tell him to look for another job it would be much better for all concerned.

Does your son want another job? If not, you can talk to him till you're blue in the face and all you'll ever get is frustrated and he will resent what he sees as nagging.

I reacted in much the same way to "pep talks" and "self-improvement lectures" when I was younger. Unless there is a way your son sees a way to directly benefit from making any kind of change (and keeping in mind his motivators are not necessarily money and status), he will resist any attempt to change him.

Just keeping up a "normal front" at work exhausts us so it's not so strange that your lad sleeps in of a weekend. Is he on any medication for depression? Sometimes it has the side effect of causing extreme drowsiness. Trying to defend against what he sees as "nagging" and "pressure" also saps the energy.

I wonder does he think you are trying to push him out of the nest so he can be left on his own and he's petrified about how he will cope? Up until I left home to go to college, I was protected from much of the bullying and nastiness I copped in college and at work. My concerns about this happening were pooh-poohed at the time but were very accurate as it so happened.

Please, even if you have to bribe your wife, impress upon her how futile it is to pressure your boy. Pep talks rarely work with aspies. It's a bummer but continuing along that vein is like continually bashing one's head against a brick wall.

I would think your son takes your wifes comments to look for a "better" job as "the job you have is not good enough - you are not good enough". I could be wrong here but I can see him taking that slant on it and yes that would be depressing. Especially if he is doing the best he can and happy with his efforts. I remember not long ago he was given the responsibility of doing some purchasing for them that show they appreciate his contributions. He may be feeling like whatever he does is not (as Max would say) "good enough for you people!".

Linda

Agreed! He probably feels as if all his effort in getting a job (usually very difficult for an aspie) has gone down the toilet. Not only that, he's now expected to go through all the rigmarole of getting a "better job".

What happens if he quits his current job and can't get another one that's higher paying? If he's happy or even just reasonably content, what's wrong with staying where he is?

I can't stress too strongly that he needs to be allowed to be who he is and do what's best for him because it's obvious he will become more and more unhappy and resentful if he is continually pressured.

If you get major criticism when you do your best, criticism that is almost equal to what you get if not trying anything at all, where is the incentive to try? I've told people straight out, "I've just finished a project; I'm proud of it, and I don't want to hear anything but compliments about it from you." The last thing I need is my ego being eroded. I've worked too hard to build it up over the years, and while I can deal a bit with small amounts of criticism from strangers (as I can write off their 'value' in my life) I cannot do the same with people who are valuable in my life. I cannot write off my mother and her opinion as worthless, so it is not good if that opinion is too strongly negative unless it is a very serious issue.

Yes. I also felt that after finishing a degree, my efforts weren't appreciated since I'd been so often told there would be no trouble in finding work afterwards.

Then, when it took six months to find a job and I was getting pressure from my family to take a job, any job, and go "doorknocking", I started having some pretty bad meltdowns.

One afternoon, I was playing music in my room. Dad said something to mum (it wasn't loud but he must have heard it a bit) and she said "don't worry dear, she'll be gone soon". I was so hurt and felt they couldn't wait to get rid of me. My first job didn't work out because they expected me to take phone calls from angry clients when I hadn't been taught properly and mum was really angry when I quit after 3 weeks. She said "you must be mentally ill or something!".

Yet, my parents were good people and I realise they wanted the best for me but I would NOT want to ever have to apply for another job ever again! It was hard enough back in 1983; it must be really difficult now.

So, bringing it back to John's son, he probably feels that he can do nothing to please his parents (especially his mum)and also that they can't wait to get rid of him so they can sell up and move interstate. No wonder the poor boy is acting so depressed!